Transitive/intransitive verbs

[Philellinas]

I don't suppose any other residents in this parish lose sleep over the loss of differentiation between these two categories of verbs but I do. I quote from the mission statement of a service supplier:-

When you order from us we only take payment when the item actually ships, never before...we’ll automatically charge you the lowest price before it ships out to you.

[My italics].
When I read a text like this I feel that the barbarians are at the gate. The passive form of the verb is hereby by-passed. You may feel impassive (who cares as long as communication is achieved?) but I sigh quietly to myself. I must get out more and see Ross Daly and friends...Here endeth today's understated rant.

[Hugh Weldon]

I don't lose sleep over it, but it certainly annoys me. Though your point 'who cares as long as communication is achieved?' is one I reluctantly resign myself to at times, when I see careless or incorrect English in official communications, written by people whose job descriptions no doubt include 'excellent written communication skills' it more than annoys me. It happens at work all the time. (One of the pleasures of this forum though is the numbers of people who can write really well.)

[kas]

I feel for you, Philellinas. My wife and I are both translators, and one of our common pet peeves is careless grammar like that. You see it more and more here too, even in quality newspapers.
Slips of grammar, carelessness about style and register...

[DavidM]

I confess to being a little puzzled here. Perhaps Philellinas can give us the correct construction so the problem would be more evident. It sounds like the sort of thing one would hear in daily speech, so it's vernacular and therefore okay, right Garth ? But if three members of the forum can identify the problem then I think it should be apparent to all. I have a creeping feeling of inadequacy. (I know, I know, but I only went to art school.)

P.S. My computer tells me "inadequacy" doesn't exist, either. I think I'll just go watch Youtube, instead.

[Adam Blake]

I feel your pain, Phil, but the hideous truth (as I'm sure you're only too well aware) is that the English language is in a constant state of flux and what is unacceptable one day becomes "OK" the next. Texting has changed younger people's perception of the written language more than any development of the last 300 years or so. Accept it and weep!

I still get a chuckle from the world's most famous split infinitive - "to boldly go where no man has gone before" - and wonder if the grammatically correct version would have rendered the show less popular - "to go boldly where no man has gone before" just doesn't have the same ring does it?

[Philellinas]

I confess to being a little puzzled here. Perhaps Philellinas can give us the correct construction so the problem would be more evident.

Back in the good old days there was a clear distinction between verbs that could be used transitively (with an object) or intransitively. In my example "to ship" could not be used intransitively and the passive form "is shipped" would have been normal usage.However, if speakers of the language do not recognise that there is a problem then there is no problem. As Jacques Cellard in his book "La vie du langage" commented succinctly: 'l'usage engendre la règle, non l'inverse". If we all end up speaking some bastardised form of English (textese?) I suppose we have to give a Gallic shrug of the shoulders and mutter "C'est la vie... du langage". Here endeth the lesson.

[Des]

This is like being on Radio 4.

[uiwangmike]

Mainline trains pass through my local station on the Seoul commuter line. When one is approaching, there's was a platform announcement, the (American) English version of which used to go, "The next train willl not stop at this station. Please wait behind the yellow (safety) line." Recently, the wording has changed to "The next train will not be stopped at this station . . .", which to me sounds rather defiant, like "We shall not be moved". By the way, the Korean announcement goes on "Please wait behind the yellow line and wait for the next train." I don't know if people in the past had tried to leap aboard for a free ride as it hurtled through at 100 kph.

[uiwangmike]

This is like being on Radio 4.

Except we're still waiting for David Crystal to come on and point out that schyppen was commonly used transitively in in Anglo-Saxon invoices up to about 972 A.D.

[Philellinas]

This is like being on Radio 4.

I'll take that as a compliment, Des. Other channels are available.

[Hugh Weldon]

The Korean 'be stopped', extraordinarily un-English as it is, is echoed by a guy who occasionally gets to announce what's happening at my local tube station Arnos Grove.

Maybe it is an eastern thing as he has a strong Indian accent, but one regularly hears about the 'next train to be departed'.

[Philellinas]

Maybe these railway station announcers would benefit from some grammar schooling. The Korean announcer could learn the line "the next train will not be stopping..." while at Arnos Grove his London Transport colleague could be coached to say "The next train to be departing...". It would sound slightly quaint but accurate.

[Des]

Doncha just hate it when a train 'manager' announces that the next 'station stop' will be Reading? Either 'station' or 'stop' is adequate. This can of course happen with stations other than Reading.

[Philellinas]

I've just heard on Radio 4 (my natural habitat) a Government minister state, "The bar will have to raise..." In my antiquated English I would use rise or be raised.
Or I would avoid using the cliche altogether. Is there no end of/to minor irritations in life? Maybe Anno Domini is taking its toll...

[Philellinas]

I usually only hear rather than listen to business news but this morning on Radio 4 I found out that Norwich Union re-branded themselves as the insipid, meaningless Eviva partly because speakers in two of their main markets, the States and India, had difficulty in pronouncing "Norwich". Apparently American speakers would pronounce it as though it were the two words "nor" and "which" run together. I just thought you'd like to know...