Best Hip Hop

[whitebeard]

1. Ahh Mr. G you brought up a point that appears to be on my mind when ever I space out talking to people from So. Cal. Is instrumental hip hop still hip hop? Could it be considered electronic Jazz? The Album Endtroducing... was the first of its kind in a couple ways. The album was make entirely from samples, the first to ever do that and pull it off. It was also, if I'm not mistaken, one of the first hip hop albums that was entirely instrumental. Since then only two albums that I know of that use entirely samples from a sampler or entirely scratched by hand (no drum-machines, live instrumentation, or samplers) Cut Chemists "The Garden" I believe is all samples. D-Styles very dark "Phantazmagoria" is 100% scratches. DJ Q-Bert came close to achieving the same with his earlier album "Wave Twisters" but it contains some drum-machine and samples but mostly is scratching. There is now a sub-genre of instrumental hip hop of which I'm like Ants to sugar. I can't get enough. Here is list of some of the more prolific beat makers making there own albums without rappers.
Jel
Alais
Sixtoo
Blockhead
Reanimator
Madlib
Joe Beats
Maker
Rob the Viking
and more and more are popping up like mushrooms after the first rain.

2. It's seems like every time I turn around the English have a new genre of music. Is "Bagman" in the same vain as "Future Dub" or "Dubwise." I do love the dense and heavy dub/reggae. But I prefer the more instrumentally focused dare I say "trippy" stuff.

[whitebeard]

2. It's seems like every time I turn around the English have a new genre of music. Is "Bagman" in the same vain as "Future Dub" or "Dubwise." I do love the dense and heavy dub/reggae. But I prefer the more instrumentally focused dare I say "trippy."

A little off topic, but an answer would be nice. Is Dubwise even a genre?

[Neil Foxlee]

Not that I know of, but who knows? There's certainly dubstep, but dubwise usually refers to a reggae dub version.

[whitebeard]

Here is where my question really lies. Does dubwise refer to the dub version, or when some one toasts over the top of the dub version? Is the act of/sub-genre of toasting like U-Roy and Big Youth for example called dubwise?

Curious

[Neil Foxlee]

The dub version.

[whitebeard]

Still Curious

Could an instrumental hip hop track say like Mobb Deep's Shook One's Pt.II minus the vocals also be considered dubwise? I am curious because the oldest form of Hip hop from the South Bronx as seen in the documentary Scratch, MC's utilize the same toasting technique over instrumental parts of songs. Then they didn't have whole instrumental hip hop tracks to rap/toast over, but now we do. I believe rapping and toasting are related but not the same. Instrumental hip hop and dubwise are also related but are they ultimately the same thing from two different cultures, or are they?

Back to the "what is" dubwise thing. Over here in California we just call dub/instrumental-reggae/dubwise "dub." If it's got that rootsy 70's King Tubby, Jammy, Scientist kinda sound, its dub. Now dubwise to us in Cali was modern electronic dub like International Observer, Ras Command, Twilight Circus kinda sounding. Do you have a name for this "dub moderne?" (you know french for modern)

Even more Curious

[Neil Foxlee]

'Dubwise' is an adjective, as in the phrase 'a dubwise selection'.

More recent non-Jamaican dub might be called 'nu dub', but it's hardly a fixed term.

To be called 'dub', I'd say you have to have some mixing of an original reggae track, even if it only means cutting or fading in and out of some frequencies.

[whitebeard]

Very Interesting

Thank You

[whitebeard]

Outkast's ATLiens is a 90's Hip Hop classic. I just recently reacquired the CD release and love the beats. It was produced by Organized Noise (early producer for Goodie Mob & Outkast) and Dre & Big Boi. Outkast's later releases remained innovative but deviated from "rap" and hybridized to something a little more genre bending. ATLiens was already more experimental then the rest of the so called rap/hip hop albums of the time but it was its production that set out for the future while still remaining present. The first song I really liked on this album was track 4 "Wheelz of Steel." The way Dre & Big Boi trade off rappin' and the epic scratch sequence that is the chorus was what I really wanted to hear in 1996. The whole album is good start to finish, but sometime the chorus in "Ova Da Woods" makes me skip it. The end of the album gets spacey in a good way and makes me wonder if Outkast albums are concept albums in a way. The last track is a remix which was typical for 90's hip hop/rap because CD's were blowing up and they had CD only track/s to lure people away from vinyl. If this isn't one of the best hip hop/rap albums ever, it definatly represented the mid-90's of hip hop very well.

[whitebeard]

I really can't stand Jay-Z, but I was listening to his first album Reasonable Doubt which I've for some reason kept since 1996 and can't help but like it. That ablum was the start of something, how do you say... jiggie. This album was the precursor of what was to come in the late 90's and the eventual downfall of hip hop. Money Raps. Other people had done it before, but not like Jigga-Jay-Z, at least not nearly as "high class." His old moniker was changed for his first album because Jay-Z had decided to rap slower then previous because rapping fast had just become "played out" by good ol' Das Efx. Special appearances featured Mary J Blige, Notorious BIG, and the song that put Foxy Brown on the map. Production features a couple by none other then the god of early and mid 90's hip hop beats, DJ premier. Puffy took notes from this album for sure.

[matt m]

If Roots Manuva hasn't had a mention in this thread yet then he really should. His new one, Slime And Reason, may have an awful title, but it’s great. Album no.4 (or is it 5?) and he has yet to make a bad record. Always inventive blend of dancehall, classic reggae and experimental hip-hop sounds.

[whitebeard]

finally someone responds or mentions Roots Manuva, or responds positively at least. Last time I brought him up I recieved this from Con Murphy on page two of this thread. "He's just a UK black making UK tracks." I was kinda taken a back by that statement. I don't know if that's a joke or a lame try at being witty. I just don't know. But as far as my opinion counts for anything, which could only be a couple inches, I can't wait to listen to Roots Manuva's new album. Slime & Reason should be his 4th full length album. He has a dub version album of "Run Come Save Me" entitled "Dub Come Save me" that Wikipedia tries to say is an LP but it is more like a double EP. One record is dub versions of the album and the other record is tracks that didn't make the album. The same goes for Alternately Deep, but that doesn't have any dub verions. I have both on record but for the life of me can't seem to find it "Dub Come Save Me" on CD. Oh man I love the "witness dub" version. It got a lot a play on my turntables, and so did "Man Fi Cool" and "UK Warriors."

[Con Murphy]

Last time I brought him up I recieved this from Con Murphy on page two of this thread. "He's just a UK black making UK tracks." I was kinda taken a back by that statement. I don't know if that's a joke or a lame try at being witty. I just don't know.

I wish you'd have asked rather than being all taken back and that. It's a quote from Colossal Insight, a track on his previous CD, 'Awfully Deep'.

I haven't heard the new one, but it's great to see him back and I'm looking forward to hearing it.

EDIT: Just went back to what I said earlier in the thread (which was generally positive, I think):-

"I think some of us said nice things about him here around the time of his last release, but that seems a worryingly long time ago now given the demons he seemed to be fighting at the time. What happened to him I wonder? I think he is an original, and as such quite difficult to get into for many. Verbally, he hasn't got the bounce of a Kanye West or an Eminem, and musically he's darker, denser than your Outkasts and Fiddy Cents. But, I guess that as with Buck 65, when (if) you attune to his dark, dystopian (almost ponderous at times) beats and rhymes, then there's nothing quite like him."

I think I'm right in saying that in recent interviews he's now started disavowing some of those sentiments expressed on 'Awfully Deep' that led listeners like me to believe he had certain issues - well, either it was a very good act or he's managed to get over them, which is all to the good.

[whitebeard]

Oh what a Con. I guess I'm the A'hole now. To quote the late Notorious BIG "if you don't know, now you know." I guess I shoulda' picked up on the reference. Sorry Mr. Murphy, I guess I did look up naive in the dictionary.
I do have a question for you Con. What do you mean by "Bounce." You said that Roots Manuva didn't have the bounce that Kanye and M&M had. Please explain to us. Because the way I'm to understand it is that Roots Manuva wasn't on MTV as much or Kanye has a bigger trampoline or something.

[Con Murphy]

I do have a question for you Con. What do you mean by "Bounce." You said that Roots Manuva didn't have the bounce that Kanye and M&M had. Please explain to us. Because the way I'm to understand it is that Roots Manuva wasn't on MTV as much or Kanye has a bigger trampoline or something.

I think what I meant by [verbal] bounce was that Em and Kanye have a lighter touch, they ride their rhythms relatively effortlessly, whereas Manuva quite often sounds completely swamped by his tracks - he's deep, deep in their dense structure and heavy, lurching beats. This is not a criticism, I think it's great.