Losing members

[Charlie]

I have had messages today from two regular contributors letting me know that they are not going to join in the discussions any more.

One said:

"I find I am too easily upset by [contributors'] remarks, attitudes, insults etc. It takes up too much headspace."

The other:

"I have come to the decision that I don't wish to contribute to the forum any longer, this is in response to some of the things written."

There are not enough of us that we can easily afford to lose valuable contributors.

I'm not sure what to do except to ask people not to turn these mostly fascinating and entertaining discussions into personal confrontations.

It would feel heavy handed to say to particular people, "please either tone down your remarks or go away and stop spoiling things."

I leave it to you all to suggest what we should do, if anything.

[Nigel w]

I'm sure you've read it in the thread called the solipsism of racial guilt,
but here's what I wrote there earlier this morning:

Why doesn't everybody take a deep breath and we all sign up to a self denying ordinance not to abuse each other (or anybody else) on this forum? ...There's nothing wrong with being provocative: indeed, it's one of the main purposes of this forum because it wouldn't need to exist if we all thought the same. So let's test and push our arguments with each other about music, culture and politics to the limit. Let's challenge each other robustly when we come on here and say things that are half-baked or ill-thought out (as we all do from time to time). Let'e even wind each other up a bit, because that can be quite fun if done in a good spirit. But everybody, please please please : no more playground name calling. Is that too much to ask?

[Alan Balfour]

Oh dear Charlie and only just recently I was saying:

I just marvel at the professional manner in which Forumistas express their views etc. There have been forums I've joined in the past decade which have been bitching, backstabbing, vitriolic war zones.

Personally I'm at a loss to know what has offended/upset folk but I'm very selective in what I read here so hence am blissfully unaware and hope I remain so. Should I come across whatever has caused this I shall just do as I have done elsewhere - ignore everything posted by that source.

[Gordon Neill]

I'm not sure what the solution is either. For the most part I actually found the Brown Sugar thread (for that was the source of the offences) highly entertaining and, more importantly, illuminating. It gave me a new insight into the lyrics of a well-known song, and it gave me some understanding of how others, operating in a different context, could find it offensive. I can't say that my views were fundamentally shifted (I found some of the more hard-line comments to be counterproductive), but it definitely gave me pause for thought about a song I really had not thought much about.

Certainly it would be useful if people avoided over-egging the pudding and using extreme language. A strong word in one direction tends to provoke an equally strong reaction in the opposite direction. People start to get emotional, and then we descend into abuse. In turn, I feel that at times some people simply take offence at others not sharing the same view. That's not being offensive, just having a different view. That's the nature of a forum.

I'd hope that I'm not one of those that causes offence. Yes, I like to have my fun, but I'd like to think that I'm above personal abuse. But if I do transgress then a wee word from Charlie and then I'd sit up straight and behave myself.

And I hope that our erstwhile colleagues do return after a while. There's plenty of views that I've disagreed with, but there's no-one here that I wouldn't miss.

[joel]

Frankly, the best thing to do is to delete the thread once it starts heading South and let those involved know thay have been bad. Other than that, I guess you have to ask people not to call others names as a general "rule".
Though What constitutes name calling is is rather tricky to pin down (ie calling someone a stupid something-or-other certainly is, but is calling someone a 'Sun reader" name calling or not in the context of this particular forum?). Generally speaking, manners are good. We should all take a page from Dayna's book.

[Ian A.]

It would feel heavy handed to say to particular people, "please either tone down your remarks or go away and stop spoiling things."

You're right, it does. I've had to do it a few times on our board, including banning a couple of persistent trolls, and the end result is we get a much quieter life but far less traffic than you get here, which is disappointing. And we still have trolls and piranhas all the same. I haven't found a satisfactory answer yet, because the moment you stop somebody trolling or conducting a personal vendetta against another contributer they always start screaming about censorship or use the N word (not the racial one) and you feel totally tainted by it all. And whether you like it or not, people get drawn into these flame wars - seems to be the same mentality that makes people slow down to stare at terrible car crashes. They've so heavily policed and purged the BBC Folk & Acoustic board that it's largely left to the trite and dimwitted these days, with very few interesting debates. Difficult, but several times in the past few days I've thought of taking an unannounced sabbatical from posting here too.

I was deadly serious about enabling the emoticon facility. They may be a little silly graphically but really can act as a defuser, in my experience on our board.

[Ted]

Charlie

Folk do stamp off, sulk for a bit and return. Howard, Ian A., Des and others have all announced their departure at some point in the past. And where are they now?

Good manners would be a start - to each other, if not to Mick Jagger. Trouble is what does that actually mean? For me it means you can say that someones opinions are rubbish (and you must be prepared to back that up) but name calling is out. (And if you want to clarify that further I'd say "fuckwit" and "Sun Reader" both count as name calling.)


In real life there are all sorts of cues you pick up - tone of voice, body language etc. that let you know when you're going too far. There were all sorts of equivalent cyberspace indications in the recent Brown Sugar thread that various posters either chose to ignore or simply didn't pick up.
A lot of this is because many of the members of this forum are music-obssessed men whose behaviour is often a bit weird - tending towards autistic - look I've met some of you and I know I'm not the only one who does not have fantastic social skills.

Deliberately disrupting threads doesn't make you look good.

Sometimes you have to be prepared to lose an argument if its getting too heated (or if its just dragging on for pages and pages).

And if someone jumps down your throat at something you've said, it generally means you've offended them - although its sometimes really difficult to work out how.

Ultimately you just have to accept that you are just not going to share everyones outlook all the time. The forum isn't a refuge from real life, its part of it.

My 2 euros worth.

tw

[Nigel w]

Ian, you and I have often disagreed, sometimes wound each other up and more than once or twice probably irritated each other hugely. But when a new issue of f-Roots comes through the post and I enjoy reading it, I'll come on here and say so (as I did over the current issue, I think). To me the criticisms and the plaudits are all fair enough and an equal part of the debate. But I think what a few people are drawing attention to is some of the use of language that has crept in recently, from loathsome slug to ***wit (which was unforgivable and a little shocking) to more nebulous but probably equally gratuitous comments telling people to go away and look at the pictures in The Sun and speculating that they might belong to the BNP. Trolls and piranhas? I know you are not aiming the terms at any specific or named individuals but they are clearly pejoratives and in the context of the thread Charlie has opened here I just wonder if it's the sort of language to takes us forward. Merely a polite observation.

Actually, I rather like trolls. In the early 1960s people used to collect them. I remember I had a set of little plastic trolls which you put on the end of your pencils at school. I was very proud of them!

[c hristian]

I could spend the next 2 hours responding to this, but i'll try to keep it brief, my thoughts on this :


1) taking a break from writing on any forum, yes, even this one, is a good thing. I encourage it. We should all know when to take breaks, for ourselves. If life is out of balance, then get it back into balance, and come back on your own timetable.

2) the telephone is a wonderful invention. So wonderful that I put my cell phone number down on here a few weeks ago, for a limited period of time, on a post where I am all but making fun of Jonathan E.'s average word count. I did it thinking that as wonderful as the telephone is, and as imperfect as a computer is for communication, NO ONE on here is *Actually* going to call me! Right? Of course , you're not! Well, to my delight and amazement, one night I get a call from this Englishman stuck in Langley, WA. Why, it's Jonathan E. calling me up! How very un-British of him! We then proceeded to have a LOVELY hour long conversation that had surprisingly very little to do with the forum, and more to do with getting to know one another better. Now, when I read his posts, I have a much better idea of where he is coming from, and I can put his voice and intonation to his words. And i may or may not continue to criticize his average word count and he may or may not continue to make references to me and my fellow Seseme Street watchers average span of attention (which he points out, is not strictly his observation, but those before him).

What I'm saying is, in the words of AT&T, reach out and touch someone. Call up and just say "Hi". And you will find that 99% of the miscommunication that happens on here will all become water under the bridge. Especially in the face of a wonderful gesture of actually calling that person up.

So yes, I am encouraging all of you to PM your telly digits to the person seated to your right. a phone call isn't going to kill you, and it will actually go a lot further in promoting respect and understanding. I mean, you spend all this time on here miscommunicating with people, so why not just call them, and actually communicate for a few minutes?

3) Here's something I learned in the past few years. I'm as socially liberal as they come, and my liberal beliefs have been thought out, live through, tried and tested. I'm still as liberal as they come. Maybe even more so. Economically may or may not be another story, but along political lines I vote liberal , b/c I know the republicans here in the US only too well. I have studied them up close and personal. I have watched people who vote republican. My dad met my mom while they were both working for the Kennedies. My families history goes back with the liberal wing of the democratic party for a long time. WHY THEN IS MY FATHER NOW A REPUBLICAN!?!? I have NO idea, ...well, I have a few suspicions, but I won't get into that.

The point here is that I must still engage in a dialogue with him, and not just because he is my dad, but because I still have a relationship with him, and still wish to. I must STILL find a way to bridge the gap, and keep the lines of communication open with him. And from that, I may learn something valuable from him, he may learn something valuable from me. (Also, I have got him committed to voting for Obama over McCain.)


My son just came up here and is reading this and is asking what i'm writing about. It's time to get off the computer. He is Obama all the way, but he keeps his ears open to what McCain has to say. He is 8.

[That Was Jonathan E. Then]

Actually, I rather like trolls. In the early 1960s people used to collect them. I remember I had a set of little plastic trolls which you put on the end of your pencils at school. I was very proud of them!

I've been trying to recall those gimmicky little marketing things since the t-word appeared here recently? Were there not also Gonks? Or Konks? Something along those lines.

And the conversation with Christian was indeed good for me too — and I had a nice one with Howard as well. It is amazing how quickly a considerably more real and 3-D seeming connection can be established via voice.

However, Christian did not persuade me to shorten my posts! Actually, he didn't even try. However, since then I have managed to make a one word post in response to one of his. Hint: six letters.

[Charlie]

the moment you stop somebody ... conducting a personal vendetta against another contributer they always start screaming about censorship . ........I was deadly serious about enabling the emoticon facility. They may be a little silly graphically but really can act as a defuser, in my experience on our board.

I agree that forum contributions (and emails too) are liable to misinterpretation, but you you'll need better evidence than this to convince me that emoticons are helpful.

They remind me of canned applause on comedy shows: "in case you didn't get the joke, this is meant to be funny."

[joel]

Part of the natural rhythm of forums is that people come and go. They post for a while, leave for a while then come back. Some just do this with a slightly more theatrical flourish than others.

[Gordon Neill]

For my own selfish reasons, I'd rather not see the use of Emoticons. Yes, they are a bit like canned laughter (that did make me laugh). But they can also destroy a lot of the subtlety of language. If I say something really dumb, I like to subsequently be able to claim that I was juist making a joke.

But I think Ian makes a really important point, and one that I hadn't consciously thought about before. The more the Forum is controlled, the more sterile it becomes. For the thing to continue to be truly worthwhile, it comes down to self-control (with maybe a few winces and warnings from The Boss).

I agree with all the other comments in this thread, but I think that Ted's slab of common sense represents particularly good value for two Euros.

[c hristian]

i am actually for the use of emoticons. MAny times I have tried to put one in here, and to my dismay, they remain a colon and a closing paragraph mark. Oh well. I don't know if you pick up on it here, but in real life I can be terribly sarcastic. HOw else would I express my sarcasm except with an emoticon? (wait, that is supposed to be an argument FOR the use of emoticons....hmmm.)

I think that given the members on this board, responsible and limited use of emoticons would be maintained. Except for me, of course. I'm an American. :) :) :)

But really, I do support emoticons, but if decide to use them, can we get find different ones to put on top than the choices that I now see over to my left? I think you need the British palate! This one is rather american , don't you think? The full smile, the half smile, the quarter smile, the chatter chatter one?

[pirkko]

i am actually for the use of emoticons.

I don't think the emoticons will help prevent flame wars or web fights. Most of web forums and blogs allow emoticons but are they any more flame-free or disgust-free for it?

Also, isn't it always possible to use the old time smileys or text emoticons?;)

It's a (unfortunate) charateristic of the web that people first express themselves and only then stop to think what they just said. I think it's a compliment to this forum and the contributors, that a quite "civil" flame war makes people stop and think, and concerned.