The Philadelphia Sound

[Gordon Moore]

Thanks for that. I managed to get the last part of your mix fine, though not the mp3.com listen working. Anyway, I have heard it before of course. But, it still does nothing for me. In fact it does exactly the opposite it turns me off.

I can appreciate the musicianship and the production intellectually, but this style of music touches absolutely nothing in me. I know that this is strange to probably many forumistas. I remember soul during Top Of The Pops shows (a music show in the uk) in the seventies - Temptations, Detroit Spinners, Detroit Emeralds, The Supremes (all Motown?) etc etc and it just wasn't what I wanted to hear and just wasn't into at all. The same with this Philly sound, though I doubt I have the discernment necessary to appreciate the difference.

However, I know that you lot all enjoy it and that's cool. There's plenty of music to go round. :)

[Con Murphy]

In fact, I doubt there's anyone here who would defend "Northern Soul".

Is it even defendable given that it's a movement (r 'n' b music that was popularised in northern English dance venues in the '60s and '70s) rather than an identifiable genre? My wife was a big northern soul girl when she was younger, and she describes all sorts of things that I play (from some Motown and Stax to the Shirelles, Chairmen of the Board and James and Bobby Purify) as "northern soul".

Or am I completely out of touch (as usual), and it's morphed into a specific sound?

[Con Murphy]

I know that this is strange to probably many forumistas. I remember soul during Top Of The Pops shows (a music show in the uk) in the seventies

I should imagine a lot of 'soul' on TOTP during that period was actually 'disco', yet another hybrid and one that doesn't do justice to a whole panoply of soul styles (already mentioned) that are just waiting to be discovered. Come on Gordon, as the man said, I know you got soul, if you didn't you wouldn't be in here. Get yourself some of those cheap Atlantic R 'n' B CDs Rob was mentioning the other week (in HMV, was it?), crank 'em up and get your groove on. You know it makes sense.

[Charlie]

THE PERFECT disco record.

Probably a question of generations, but for me the perfect disco record was by the Bee Gees. I didn't like them at all, but that's my point. There could be no such thing as a good disco record, to somebody brought up on soul music.

Disco was what ruined soul, and for that I could never forgive it. The cusp seemed to be around 1972 - one moment we had perfect records by Al Green and the Staple Singers, the next there were drum machines and that swishing hi-hat of the Philadelphia records, and nothing was ever the same again. It was a surprise to find there was a real drummer at Sigma, so metronomic was his rhythm.

I finally got over my prejudice and had to admit there were some good, even great records out of Phillie, but I could never love them they way I loved those of Otis or Smokey.

Northern soul, as is being established here by others, was something totally different from Phillie soul. Northern soul, as far as I could tell, was mostly records that were or would have been turned down by quality control at Motown, second and third division stuff that thrived because it was obscure. But it was obscure because it wasn't very good! I never could get with this approach to records, whatever the idiom. There were rockabilly fans like this, and garage fans too, like the people who tried to turn Rocky Erikson into something more than a one-hit wonder as a member of the Thirteenth Floor Elevators. Garth Cartwright's review of Rocky's recent gig was so predictable, I'm surprised he went in the first place.

Sorry, wandered off the point here, which was/is, disco was a Bad Thing. Did you ever hear James Brown's disco records?

[Ted]

Love is the Message by MFSB is by all accounts, and by every old DJ of taste that

I think you will find that the perfect Disco record is " Which Way Is Up" by Stargard.

TW

[Ted]

Disco was what ruined soul, and for that I could never forgive it. The cusp seemed to be around 1972 - one moment we had perfect records by Al Green and the Staple Singers, the next there were drum machines and that swishing hi-hat of the Philadelphia records, and nothing was ever the same again. It was a surprise to find there was a real drummer at Sigma, so metronomic was his rhythm.

A bit of clarity about what we mean by Disco might be a good thing. At the time most rock fans condemned all dance music of black origin as "disco". But its a mighty long way from Donna Summer to The Blackbyrds to Blondie to Funkadelic but all of these acts would have been lumped together.

I don't really think of Philly as disco. The brilliant Georgio Moroder Donna Summers singles maybe, Chic - and even there I'm lumping together two very different acts - I've had to reassess the Bee Gees, they were much better than I thought at the time - but then I also thought that gobbing at bands was pretty cool then so don't trust my judgement. Dance music oftens tends towards the forgettable - once its fulfilled its function of having the right rhythm 90% of its intended job is done.

I think Disco took the blame for the unfulfilled hopes of 60s soul. I totally agree about the absolute high-water mark of Al Green's early 70s output. But the process that led to disco was already happening then - Al was not about to rock any political boats, his concentration on romantic lurve was not much different to the total disengagement with reality and immersion in hedonism that was to come.

Sorry - a bit incoherent there. In a bit of a rush..

Cheers

TW

[c hristian]

my goodness charlie, correct me if I'm wrong, but drum machines didn't come about until late 70s/early 80s. So, most of the disco music, at least the disco that I have sitting on my shelves, anyway, used a live drummer, and when one is trying to beat match/mix these records, you can CERTAINLY tell that this is no machine, otherwise certain records would be a lot easier to mix.

But I hear you. As George Clinton put it, making love requires more than one stroke, and that's what disco (eventually) did. Early disco, from the early 70s, before they called it "disco", was a lot of different types of music. Everything was crossing over. But as the popularity and commercial success of dancing nightclubs grew, and the rise of the DJ and the invention of the record pool, and the invention of the 12inch single remix a la Tommy Moulten, A and R departments suddenly started to fixate on 1 certain kind of beat and sound. So again, to go back to what Clinton said, disco became music with only [one stroke]. I can't remember the exact words, but as disco became popular, the sound was homoginized, basically. So, compared to when it contained many different sounds, I can understand if people then didn't enjoy the resulting disco. And attached with the music, is, of course, the lifestyle that is associated with it. But all of that , I didn't live through, so it's all hindsight for me, in a way. Makes me wonder what good music I'm missing out of from today's hiphop and/or dance music, just because I've written off some entire genres as a whole (British Hard House comes to mind).

Anyway, I just don't think that you call can sit through the entire 11 minutes of the full Love is the Message and not enjoy it. Not the first half only, not the second half only, but the entire thing. I have never met anyone who doesn't enjoy the song, after having listened to the entire thing. Maybe I've just been running in the wrong circles..

As for the suggestion for the other disco song mentioned, I haven't heard it , I don't think, but I'll look into it. thanks for the suggestion.

[Charlie]

my goodness charlie, correct me if I'm wrong, but drum machines didn't come about until late 70s/early 80s.

Well you made the invitation, Christian, so I will - George McCrae's 'Rock Me Baby' ('72) was built on a drum machine, so was Timmy Thomas' Why Can't We Live Together' (I loved them both, by the way), followed by almost everything out of that Miami scene, and so were some Ike & Tina Turner records, probably including 'Nutbush City Limits'. Sly Stone too. Kraftwerk's 'Autobahn' was in '74, wasn't it?

If we're going to do 10 great disco records, 'I Feel Love' by Donna Summer gets my vote as number one.

[Gordon Neill]

I wouldn't want to encourage a listing of great disco records (as a genre, I hated it) but my favourite was Gwen Guthrie's 'Ain't Nothing Going On But the Rent' (assuming that it is a disco record, I'm never too sure about some of these pigeon holes). Unusually for me, it's the lyric that is particularly appealing, as it was unusually frank and realistic:

‘Cause nothin’ from nothin’ leaves nothin’
You got to have somethin’ if you wanna be with me
Oh, life is too serious, love’s too mysterious
A fly girl like me needs security

‘Cause ain’t nothin’ goin’ on but the rent
You got to have a J-O-B if you wanna be with me
Ain’t nothin’ goin’ on but the rent
You got to have a J-O-B if you wanna be with me

No romance without finance
I said no romance without finance

[Alastaw]

Hmmm Disco and Northern Soul in the same topic. Well how can one resist .. Disco for me is another category where I love a record despite it being classified as such. I spent 1977-78 working with a guy who DJ'd three nights a week in town who would go out and spend huges amounts on new discs - and through him I first heard - Chic - on import, Donald Byrd and the Blackbyrds, Bobby Hutcherson, Parliament/Funkadelic - now of these one I prefer on a dance floor ( that'll be Chic! ) and all the rest are in the record collection.

Northern Soul - well I was invited to Wigan Casino at Uni and have never seen anything like it - a whirling dervish convention maybe - and all much harder than anything which was coming out as Soul on TOTP. I understand Charlie's comments on sub-Motown but there remain some gems that I still own and love - which would have been seen as Northern Soul - Mighty Crowded by Betty Everett, Tainted Love - Gloria Jones
and Shirley Ellis - The Nitty Gritty - these could all fit in under other categories Southern Soul etc but who am I to worry!

Northern Soul is one of those odd categories like Rare Groove,Trad Jazz and Ska where we have a dance/music movement trawling through teh archives.. and why not.

Somewhere ,on another forum , someone is debating "Global Beats" - the amswer is do you like the individual track, record or artist no?

[Con Murphy]

my favourite was Gwen Guthrie's 'Ain't Nothing Going On But the Rent'

Yes, great record with a wonderful funky bassline. I think that was on the 4th and Broadway label*, and they brought out some great disco/funk records. Shirley Brown's Somebody Else's Guy was another one.



*Edit: just checked, and no it isn't - it's on Polydor. I'll leave my mistake in anyway, as I still love some of the 4th and Broadway records from around that time.

[c hristian]

so, is it fair to say that the first use of the drum machine was with Kraftwerk?
I wouldn't know, as I was only 2 when Autobahn came out, and I bought a casette of it in 1985. Wait, I can tell right now, that with posting on this forum, I am going to feel the need to look up everything in google and wikipedia.

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From wikipedia :

The first commercially available rhythm machines were included in organs in the late 1960s, and were intended to accompany the organist. The first largely successful drum machine was the Rhythm Ace. It was produced by a company then called Ace Tone (later called Roland). In 1964 it developed the Ace Electronics R1 Rhythm Ace. The R1 was possibly the world's first fully transistorised rhythm machine but, despite interest and sample orders from American manufacturers, it didn't get any wider success. The machine produced sounds when you pressed buttons, much like today's drum pads, but it offered no pre-programmed patterns. FR1 Rhythm Ace appeared in 1967. The positive response was immediate, and the FR1 was adopted by the Hammond Organ Company for incorporation within its latest line of organs. The Rhythm Ace was a preset-only unit; it was not possible for the user to alter or modify the pre-programmed rhythms. A number of other preset drum machines were later released in the 1970s. The first major pop song to use a drum machine was a cover version of Sly & the Family Stone's "Somebody's Watching You" recorded by Little Sister. The song, produced and composed by Sly Stone, entered the R&B charts in 1971. Drum machine tracks were also heavily used on the Sly & the Family Stone album There's a Riot Goin' On, released the same year. First German kraut rock band using drum machine was Can, making experiments with it while recording their album Tago Mago(1971), especially in song "Peking O". The first album in which a drum machine produced all the percussion was Arthur Brown/Kingdom Come's Journey, recorded in November 1972 using a Bentley Rhythm Ace.

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All those songs you mentioned I love. Esp. Rock You Baby. I hear that in the grocery store these days, and I just well up with tears. People wonder why I'm getting ice cream and crying about it. It's b/c of the song they are playing! I did a extended reEdit of that song b/c it is, otherwise, so short! Too short! Somebody else's Guy is my wife's favorite. And techno, to me , sounds like a direct decendant from Moroder's music, in partic., I Feel Love.
Great song, I Feel Love, but one that I have yet to use to great affect, although I keep wanting to. Have you heard Cal Craig's remix of Cesaria Evora's Angola? It sounds wonderful to transition from that into I Feel Love.

As for Northern Soul, it's something I've only recently been aware of. And I know that a huge hit from that scene is the original Tainted Love. I'd love to hear it. I've heard snippets only. Something I wouldn't mind having. But the soft cell version is tops too. What's wonderful is to have the 12inch 45RPM of Soft Cell's version, and play it at 33. It's great slowed down.

So, while the subject is on the table, has there been a period in your life where you went out regularly to dance? What was the music then that you remember dancing to, enjoying? How long ago was this?

As for me, it started with the late 80s, enjoying the Acid House culture from afar (living on Cape Cod, where I was raised, and getting to Boston clubs every once in a while, raves every once in a while, although American raves were nothing like the British ones), greatly enjoyed touring France and England when on a singing in Cathedrals tour, singing at day, going to the clubs in the cities at night, later enjoying and DJing the clubs of Wash DC in the 90s and 00s with an occasional trip up to NYC, to attend Body and Soul with Francois K or to the Loft with David Mancuso. It was during my apprenticeship at one of the Wash DC clubs with DJ Mandrill here that first exposed me to underground disco. He's been spinning it since the 70s when he spun it at the ClubHouse. The ClubHouse was the Wash DC sister club to NYC's Paradise Garage / Larry Levan. I put all this out there only to try and illustrate to those that might know where my view point comes from. So, safely into the 21st century did I first enjoy disco music.

For me, my favorite disco songs are Love is the Message, Running Away - Roy Ayers, and Quiet Village, a very lush, very over the top disco song by the Ritchie Family that is thrilling to listen to and even more thrilling to watch a roomful of people dance to it with all the lights and mirrors, and all the harps and strings and brass.

I think it would have been so thrilling be a musician in the Philadelphia Orchestra at the time. You would play your MFSB recording gig on the off-times, play your Sat night symphony gig, and then possibly go to a disco after the symphony, where you could hear the result of your work coming out of the speakers, and watching people all around you respond. Wonderful!

[Gordon Moore]

So, while the subject is on the table, has there been a period in your life where you went out regularly to dance? What was the music then that you remember dancing to, enjoying? How long ago was this?

Tainted Love - Soft Cell, Mirror In The Bathroom - The Beat, Two Tone, Duran Duran, Ultravox, sad isn't it.

and for the Disco: Donna Summer's I Feel Love is my fave. Even now if I hear it I get shivers. I must get a copy.

And I confess to the Bee Gees on the dancefloor. Well the chicks liked it, and that's where I wanted to be. I never bought any though, oh no, not me, no siree!

[c hristian]

hey, I like some beegees songs too!

[Charlie]

like a golden oldie, this topic has been played before - see Garth's starter for ten, under Singing in English