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Rock My World?

controversial commentary from our one-time regular columnist
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76 posts • Page 3 of 6 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

Postby howard male » Wed May 02, 2007 10:07 am

Garth wrote -

Anyway, H, go get a good selection of Chess recordings from the 50s/60s and marvel at how almost all British rock from the 60s arises from that seminal Chicago label. Maybe your response to it will be able to inform us of why most white rock fans in general don't buy black blues.


I find it amusing that you still seem to be under the impression that just because I don't have an encyclopaedic knowledge of early blues, Garth, I don't know what it's like. It's like the fact that you only need to have seen two or three impressionist paintings to get what impressionism is about - it's a relevant genre of painting which was a huge stepping stone towards modernism, but I don't need to go and study every impressionist painting to get where Monet and his posse were coming from.

I don't own some Chess box set is because, quite frankly, the form bores the pants of me when there's so much else going on, on the planet which is musically more interesting. One or two budget comps is all you need to get the point. It offers no surprises. I know it's the done thing to hold every scratched up old tape or ten-inch as some kind of glorious talisman and template for every great record that has appeared since, but I just don't buy it.

But having said that, of course all those old black dude records from Chicago and Mississippi are a thousand times better than what any white dude has done since, and I can confidently state that I don't own any diluted white-boy blues records of the variety being discussed here either - never have.

As for why white rock fans not buying black blues - I actually think they do these days - otherwise why is there still a corner of most HMV/Virgin megastores devoted to the genre? I'm sure it's a lot rarer to see a black guy picking up a Chess box set and lovely taking it to the counter as if it contained the very meaning of life!
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Postby Rob Hall » Wed May 02, 2007 1:58 pm

howard male wrote:I don't own some Chess box set is because, quite frankly, the form bores the pants of me when there's so much else going on, on the planet which is musically more interesting. One or two budget comps is all you need to get the point. It offers no surprises.


I think this encapsulates, Howard, why you and I will never agree on matters of artistic merit.
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Postby howard male » Wed May 02, 2007 4:01 pm

Don't be so pessimistic, Rob. We have agreed on things musical on several ocassions and I'm sure we will again! For example I shall probably invest in that Atlantic box set you kindly informed us all about.
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Postby Adam Blake » Wed May 02, 2007 10:57 pm

You lot! Wot're yew like??

Garth, you walked into that one (I'm sure deliberately) and Howard, you despatched that nonchalant dismissal with such an icy elan I could feel the breeze from here.

I think you all take this a bit too seriously. I mean, I can't believe we're seriously discussing the relative merits of the blues! In fact, I refuse to discuss it seriously. Having demolished poor old Gary Moore (and felt guilty about dissing the undoubtedly sincere efforts of a fellow muso) I feel I have earned the right to a little frivolousness.

So, Howard, do you want a copy of my David Bowie "Beckenham Demos" tape? It's hilarious. The Dame making a painfully unconvincing attempt at humility whilst trying to flog the "Space Oddity" material to some record exec called Bob.

Similarly Garth, I am getting rid of some crappy old Stones bootlegs that I'm sure you'd like. I'll have to copy them before they leave the place, of course, old compulsions die hard. There's a ribald song about Andrew Loog Oldham's sexual procilivities that finally caused him to walk out of the studio, there's the infamous "Cocksucker Blues", there's a frankly risible version of Bo Diddley's "Cops And Robbers".... You get the picture.

C'mon guys, lighten up. Let's celebrate our heritage together!
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Postby garth cartwright » Thu May 03, 2007 2:12 am

H, why do you keep on going on about 'scratched" and "old" when talking about blues? Point i was making is that the stuff that fired 60s rock - and Tom Waits, White Stripes etc - was made in the 50s/60s in excellent studio conditions and arrived here brand new: Jagger and Richard met on the tube when keef noted mick holding brand new import Chess albums.

When you write such i understand why Word employ you: pompous middle class middle aged know nothing rock fan mouthing off as an expert on everything. Just for once, shut up and go listen!
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Postby Adam Blake » Thu May 03, 2007 9:21 am

Now that's just plain abuse, with a deeply suspect subtext. Stop it now.
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Postby howard male » Thu May 03, 2007 9:24 am

Garth wrote -

When you write such i understand why Word employ you: pompous middle class middle aged know nothing rock fan mouthing off as an expert on everything. Just for once, shut up and go listen!


Well, clearly you've taken your pal Adam's wise words (above) to heart, Garth! He's absolutely right, you know - this is madness and I only get drawn into such nonsense when you start questioning my taste and credentials to be a world music critic. I have never attacted you on such levels, though it would be easy enough to do so. And the last time I got into one of these stupid arguments was when you were last making your little digs and sweeping statements.

'know nothing'? I've always made a point of saying I am a 'know-nothing' as far as world music goes, bowing to others greater and wider knowledge, so you can hardly insult me on that level. As you know, I'm a relative newcomer to the genre, but as far as you are concerned this would seem to be a crime in itself.

'expert on everything'? I sometimes wonder if you actually read what I write, Garth. Because I have never claimed to know everything, or anything for that matter. And I'm certainly no expert as you are always so keen to point out. Every piece I write for the forum is delivered from a position of questioning and investigation, and with the desire to read what others have to say on the subjects I raise.

As for Word employing me, didn't you recently admit to being in the employ of the far grimmer and dumber Q? We take what we can get in this business and I happen to think the Word is the most intelligent of those general music mags and the least retro. It's also great that on a very modest level they are inviting world music into their pages - and even their free CD - with one or even two tracks sometimes.

Now please can this back-biting stop!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-MYVv4tgQc

Postby Gordon Neill » Thu May 03, 2007 2:14 pm

Garth ... um... said:

... pompous middle class middle aged know nothing rock fan mouthing off as an expert on everything....


Garth,
OK, so Howard should listen to some more Chess stuff. I agree. There's a wealth of great material well beyond the reach of budget compilations. But that's up to Howard. It doesn't make him a bad person.

Howard,
I'd no idea you were a rock fan!
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Silver threads and golden needles

Postby NormanD » Thu May 03, 2007 2:20 pm

howard male wrote:Now please can this back-biting stop!
Well, yes, it doesn't make pleasant reading. No doubt this back-biting will fizzle out until the next round starts. Probably not with Garth (again).....

Am I the only one to notice that there's a pattern here? Maybe I'm the only one to draw attention to it as I will do now. Howard, you've been involved in quite a few spats on this Forum over the years which - kind of - resolve themselves, often through Forum walk-offs.

Howard's World Views: observations and provocations by our regular columnist

I'm sure you like the role of provocateur and controversialist. It gets people going, after all, and who wants a quiet, half-dead Forum? But there is a limit to how far some people put up with being poked before they start biting back, and react in ways that might not be pleasant.

Howard, having the last word is not the same as having the best word.

Maybe "Howard's World Views" could be subtitled "Silver Threads and Golden Needles".

Norman
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Postby howard male » Thu May 03, 2007 3:08 pm

Actually Norman, time flies and I don't think I've fallen out with anyone since the last time I fell out with Garth, and prior to that, you and Phil Meadley which was a long time ago. I've only walked out once - when you publically embarrassed me on this forum - as you are again now.

Can you explain to me how I have 'poked' Garth? Can you explain to me how my well reasoned points deserve the kind of rudeness he hurled back at me? I made a perfectly reasonable point - that I disagree with the idea that white men don't buy black blues. And I dared to say that, on the whole, the form no longer holds my attention - and I get 'pompous' and 'an expert on everything' thrown at me.

I know that for some reason you and others on this forum personally dislike me, I can't do much about that - I've tried to be friendly with you when we meet. But I suppose one has to accept that one can't be liked by everyone.

But to get back to this Chess business. I've got Chess albums by Fontella Bass, John Lee Hooker, Bo Diddley, Howling Wolf, Etta James, and Muddy Waters and much else besides has I'm sure sunk in by osmosis over the years - what I object to is the fact that I'm put in a position where I have to say this is order to not be thought of as some ignorant fool - and this rock fan stuff Garth keeps coming up with too - it's like being in the playground again. As I've said before - the last time he asked me to be gone from this forum - I maybe listen to an old Roxy, Bowie, or Bolan album once a year, if that - and still he labels me a rock fan, and therefore, according to his tribal concept of music, a know nothing rock fan!

Look, whatever you may think Norman, i don't enjoy this kind of shit. What i do like is intelligent discussions on music - that's why I sometimes take the role of Devil's advocate - but this stuff is tiring beyond belief.
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Postby NormanD » Thu May 03, 2007 5:32 pm

I have no axe to grind on this subject, I merely stated my observation. For the record, the "walkings off" I mentioned were by the other parties. It's up to you if you want to tell everyone about a past falling-out we had. I did delete the particular post that upset you, and I would like to think that most of our communications / contacts / exchanges - both here and in real life - have been open and decent. But what do I know? Maybe I don't smile enough.

Howard, I have emailed you a couple of times in recent months, about particular comments you'd made about other Forum members, in an attempt to diffuse situations (and one post you did amend following my advice). I only mention this to say that I do have an interest in what you write, and also its potential impact on others. Maybe I should have just kept my nose out.

I am surprised that you found my last post above publicly embarrassing for you. More so than the one above from Garth?

No, I cannot explain why someone should feel provoked by something you have written, no more than I can fully understand why you might feel embarrassed by my earlier comments. It's not just about cause and effect, but a general awareness of the situation, a sensitivity towards what might be going on. We all have different breaking points, over the least likely of things and at the most unexpected times.

This is as much as I want to say on this.

Norman
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Postby Gordon Moore » Thu May 03, 2007 5:56 pm

All I said was that I quite liked Gary Moore!

Time for a drink, who's buying?
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Postby judith » Thu May 03, 2007 10:07 pm

normand wrote: We all have different breaking points, over the least likely of things and at the most unexpected times.Norman


Norman, please forgive me for quoting you after you stated you that it was as much as you wanted to say. But, this sentence and your comments about general awareness and sensitivity are quite striking. While thinking about your words, I came across this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCIyzNIS ... ed&search=

Would that the 'differences' above could come together to create something so unlikely and unexpected.
Last edited by judith on Thu May 03, 2007 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cut!

Postby Gordon Neill » Thu May 03, 2007 10:10 pm

Samuel Goldwyn said:

Don't pay any attention to the critics--don't even ignore them.

and
If you don't disagree with me, how will I know I'm right?


PS Nice clip Judith (or Jayne). But it isn't over until the fat lady sings. Here she is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0cCD8lLsTo
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Postby Adam Blake » Thu May 03, 2007 10:45 pm

Sister 'Retha... I clicked on the link to "Natural Woman' from what looks like the early 70s...

Jeez...

I ask you, oh ye men of stone, when shall we see talent like that again?
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