The Canon Cathedral

[Dayna]

Howard & Charlie started a list on page 3 of this thread & I was trying to add to it.
I wrote a little bit about Mannheim Steamroller under neathe the one about Damon Albarn. I could try to find a link about them. It seems like if you hear their Christmas music, you might know who they are. It's unique. The other music they've done I unique too.

[Dayna]

There is one Classical song I've heard by several different people & it still seems to sound good. I don't know the name of it right off hand. I found out some time ago it was part of the radio program from the 30's War of The Worlds. But The first time I heard it, was when I watched a Gene Kelly movie a few years ago. It was Anchors Away, & some guy played just a little of it on a piano & I liked the way it sounded just from that little part of it. It was afterward I found out it was part of a 30s radio show. I haven't even heard that show yet. maybe I will some day. I'm not interested in seeing the movie with Tom Cruise at all.
Actually, I heard a version of it by Glenn Miller, too.

[Dayna]

I thought of another one for your list.

Carlos Santana.
He's been around since the 60s with his own unique mixture of styles.
He still puts out good music even now.

[Dayna]

Am I the only one still interested in this? My minds still working on it. I've been serious about it & having fun with it.

[ritchie]

good for you, don't work too hard though.

take some time off relax and chill out a bit.

but hey, keep on 'having fun'

oh by the way ....what do you want for christmas?....puppies are nice ....but remember they are not just for christmas.

[Dayna]

Monkees
Tom Jones

Could they be in this list?

[Adam Blake]

Dayna, what have either The Monkees or Tom Jones done to deserve consideration to be included in the list of the most important musical acts of all time?

I'm sorry. I don't mean to be snotty. But The Monkees - much as I love them - were an entirely manufactured pop act who performed other people's songs and, more often than not, hardly played anything on their own records. The fact that the records were such durable pop classics owed very little to the Monkees input, and a great deal to the sterling efforts of the teams of producers, arrangers, session musicans and professional songwriters who worked on them. This is not esoteric knowledge - something only a music expert would know. It's widely known.

Tom Jones is more impressive. He was (and is) a very good singer. But again, he doesn't write his own material, he doesn't present any kind of artistic vision beyond an immaculate sense of showbusiness professionalism. You might just as well nominate Dean Martin or Andy Williams.

But between the two acts, I know which one I prefer!

With the best will in the world, Dayna, please may I ask you to do a bit of research on an act before you put them forward. It's easy enough: all you have to do is enter their name into a search engine!

All the best
Adam

[Charlie]

an entirely manufactured pop act who performed other people's songs and, more often than not, hardly played anything on their own records.

When I started doing the research that led to my book The Sound of the City, in the mid 1960s when I was in my mid-20s, I began to see a pattern in my teenage tastes - I realised that I had tended to prefer people who wrote their own songs (Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly) over those who didn't (Connie Francis, Bobby Vee).

But the lines weren't completely clear. Bobby Darin, Paul Anka and Neil Sedaka all wrote their own songs, and I was uneasy about all of them (Neil Diamond has come under similar scrutiny in this topic).

On the other hand, Elvis (P), Jerry Lee Lewis, The Coasters, Clyde McPhatter and the Drifters (and a bit later, The Temptations and Aaron Neville) didn't write their own songs, but made great and unique records that would qualify them for consideration in the Canon.

So I'm not sure it's a simple matter of telling somebody to look names up on the internet, to see whether they wrote their own material. It's all down to the sound of their records. The Everly Brothers occasionally wrote their own songs, but were essentially a vehicle for the songs of Felice and Boudleaux Bryant, a bit like the Coasters' relationship with Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller.

While we've agreed that this Canon is not looking for producers, occasionally their protogees can qualify.

The reason why the Monkeees don't count is that they didn't push any stylistic boundaries, but stayed pretty much within the format established by the British vocal groups, among whom I would vote for the Searchers, incidentally, even though they only occasionally wrote their own songs. Their twelve-string jangle was the the precusor for the folk-rock of the Byrds, a vastly over-rated group, and perhaps a good example of what Howard was looking for when he opened up the subject all those months ago. If The Byrds were in the Canon, I'd vote them out.

Tom Jones is essentially a cabaret singer, whose career was sustained because Las Vegas and TV liked him so much. But he's a cul-de-sac in terms of influence. a throw-back who owes a debt to Frankie Laine.

[Adam Blake]

Hi Charlie,

I didn't mean to imply that anyone who doesn't write their own material is automatically excluded; only artists who fail to, in your words, "push any artistic boundaries". I think that it IS possible to do a little internet research, say, on Wikipedia, to determine whether or not a proposed act is at least generally reckoned to be an original - regardless of what one may or may not feel about them.

I love The Monkees records, but I would never consider them to be particularly original or ground-breaking. The Fall, on the other hand, ARE original and ground-breaking but I can't stand them! I do like The Searchers, though.

[Dayna]

I hope it's Ok to write this here, but I was wondering if a Motown Group could go on that Canon. Like Supremes.

[howard male]

The Supremes are an interesting case because of course they didn't write their own material but were at times absolutely sublime. But maybe the question should be - were they better than if they'd been any other three giggly girls from Detroit who could hit a note - picked at random, given the songs, and guided up the charts?

My answer would be no. Apart from Diana Ross who gave them their unique sound. But then if you put Diana in, every spoilt diva on the planet is going to be screaming, "hey, why not me too!"

[Con Murphy]

I hope it's Ok to write this here, but I was wondering if a Motown Group could go on that Canon. Like Supremes.

Hi Dayna. I agree with you that The Supremes should be in there, if only for the first 20 seconds of Where Did Our Love Go, which is about as close to a definition of the 60s Motown sound as you can get.

But there are some Motown acts in the pantheon already - Temptations, Smokey, Marvin Gaye (see Page 3 of the thread). There's still a Stevie Wonder-sized hole in it due to his not producing anything of any worth since about 1976, which I think is grossly unfair - if he'd died 30 years ago, I'm betting he'd be in there.

[howard male]

Con wrote -

...if he'd died 30 years ago, I'm betting he'd be in there

Maybe there should be a special antechamber in the Canon Cathedral called the If They Had Died Thirty Years Ago Room - it would be pretty crowded!

Also perhaps those nominated for it could replace all the artists in the established canon whose reputation was disproportionately enhanced by their untimely deaths.

[Ian M]

Charlie's observation about the Byrds did make me think about all those West Coast bands and musicians who are regularly feted in the rock press. The Doors, the Grateful Dead, Zappa, Crosby Stills etc. The writing about them, and their fanbases, seem to have created such a mythology that it becomes self perpetuating truth that they are somehow worthy of inclusion in any pantheon going. But as time goes by, I wonder if their reputations will last. Perhaps the only real innovator worthy of our canon is Captain Beefhear, who surely pushed some stylistic boundaries?

[Charlie]

Perhaps the only real innovator worthy of our canon is Captain Beefheart, who surely pushed some stylistic boundaries?

At the risk of seeming to have an anti-California bias, I could never see/hear what Beefheart did that Howlin' Wolf had not done far better a few years earlier. The best thing about him was his name - what would a bee fart sound like?