UKIP

[Garth Cartwright]

So - is there any British resident of this forum who is not going to vote on Thursday in the local elections? I know, Labour remain rubbish and the Greens have no chance. But the rise and rise of UKIP is enough to make me walk to the nearest Peckham polling station. Local and European elections tend to get low turnouts but this one does feel different due to Farrage and cronies seeming to have tapped in to a wide seam of discontent amongst UK voters. While they obviously have won over BNP and hard right Tory voters they also seem to have won many traditional Labour supporters and 'floating' voters. The reasons for UKIP's rise are myriad - and I place a lot of blame at New Labour's door for so ignoring the concerns of ordinary people so creating an alienated caste (remember the old lady in the Midlands who asked Brown on the campaign trail about why he had let so many Poles in when local people were struggling to find work and he dismissed her as "a bigot"?) - and my biggest concern with them is that they will help the Tories hold onto power in the next election (the Lib Dems will be decimated so surely play no part in the next govt). Anyway, yr thoughts? Oh, anyone of you lot voting UKIP? If so, I'm interested in why - no abuse forthcoming, I promise.

[Adam Blake]

Of course this is all over Facebook. My take, for what it's worth, is that people are realising, either consciously or unconsciously, that both Labour and Conservative are puppets of the same corporate oligarchy and that voting for either of them will not bring about any real change. Voting for UKIP, however, WILL bring about a change. Sadly, it will be a change for the worse. Much worse. The British working class has been effectively disenfranchised and rather than blame the plutocrats who out-sourced manufacturing jobs to places where they could take advantage of slave labour, many of them choose to blame the poverty stricken Eastern Europeans who come here to starve more slowly than they would at home. Allowing areas of certain English towns to become almost completely Islamic was not exactly a vote winner, either.

For myself, I always vote Green. I probably always will.

[NormanD]

Yes to both of the comments above. I'll be voting, but not Labour, and it's most unlikely I'll do so again. There are a couple of left choices that offer a better option than Labour, locally - so I'll at least be able to vote for someone.

Farridge makes good media copy. He's like the fellow you've just met, whom you get into a pally casual conversation with; you seem to get on well on most things, and then his nasty streak comes out..... He'll probably do well this time around. The UKIPs are pandering to that low level of fear and prejudice, from people who have got a little and they're dead scared of losing even that. The world's going to shit so they kick out at those whom they see as beneath them, and somehow responsible for the mess.

The UKIPs pander to the middle-ground - workers who still think they've got something to lose, and small business people and traders who are being steamrollered by the multinationals. They use nationalism and racism as it's a popular recruiter. But big business, the City, the banks have little use for Farridge and his crowd other than as shit stirrers who move the two main parties ever further to the right. Any move to leave the EU wouldn't suit big business at all, so he's unlikely to get much financial support from that direction.

The UKIPs will likely do well in this week's elections (the EU elections hardly get much interest across most of Europe) and probably get a number of MEPs under the PR system as a result of the 'protest' vote. They'll probably get some council seats here and there, but unlikely to get any control. All this may give them some momentum for the 2015 Parliamentary elections when, at best, they'll do as well as the LibDumbs - and they're going right down the pan, which we can see on a daily basis.

The press and tv media are keen to generate some excitement over May 22nd, but it's a phoney enthusiasm. It fills space, generates copy, draws in listeners/viewers. It'll make little impact on our daily lives - prices will continue rising, rents unaffordable, taxes heavy, public services increasingly degrading, food expensive. And ways of stopping any of this won't come from this election, irrespective of whom we vote for. We'll only stop local hospitals from closing, for example, if we get together and do it ourselves.

[will vine]

Norm's nailed it -

The world's going to shit

There's this story - Terry Smith, London jazz guitarist, is rehearsing in Ronnie Scott's and Ronnie is getting a bit upset with the level of amplification Terry is employing. "Terry, Terry, Terry," he cries "turn it down" and then, shaking his head in absolutely confused exasperation, "or up."

And you know, I think we all feel a bit like that now. Don't you?

[Rob Hall]

I think the world has always been going to shit, it's just that - this time around - we're the ones here to bear witness to it.

[Chris P]

I'm not sure it's the shit that's the problem, it's other human effluvessence(sic), and in the many and broadest senses that that encompasses. Having said that there's always all (the planet & its current life forms, including these weird bipeds we are), to play for. Someone should probably invoke Newton's 2nd law of thermodynamics: the Sun's currently putting energy into the system, so there's no valid excuse for entropy

[Chris P]

"Terry, Terry, Terry," he cries "turn it down" and then, shaking his head in absolutely confused exasperation, "or up."

And you know, I think we all feel a bit like that now. Don't you?

by gyorgio, I think Will's put his digit on sommuk here. Is there a vacant spot on 'Thought for the Day'? (institutional UK BBC radio slot, for any puzzled readers outside the UK or R4's remit)

[will vine]

As they say....If voting changed anything they wouldn't let you do it.

And yet, it's going to be most interesting in the upcoming elections (Euro/Scots Devolution/UK General) to see how many people do vote, and who they are. The young? The old? Who is left in the UK that doesn't feel betrayed and cynical?

The Tories and UKip promise a bright new yesterday.
Labour has betrayed its supporters and is running on empty and uninspired rhetoric.
LibDems have betrayed themselves as well as us.

[NickH]

A pity it's the simplistic, reactionary rhetoric of Ukip which appears to register with some disaffected voters. I tend to agree with Labour's Chuka Umunna that Ukip can be defeated if their policies on NHS privatisation, flat tax, repealing fox hunting ban etc are highlighted. Many voters seem to be unaware that Nige leads a Thatcherite political party, which is the UK's answer to the US Tea Party.

Farage had been given an easy time by the media until the recent robust questioning from LBC's James O'Brien. It would be good to see Farage challenged like this when he next appears on the BBC.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/watch-nigel-farage ... 1130-90532

Voting Green seemed to work where I was on 22nd May (Keith Taylor from the Green party re-elected as a Green MEP). With all the attention on Ukip, it's easy to overlook the fact that the Greens did well in the Euro elections.

Although I support their aims, I'm not sure Left Unity has much chance electorally with the first-past-the-post voting system in the UK. Voting Labour is realistically the main way of kicking out the hated Tories in 2015. Let's hope some of the more radical policies mentioned by Ed in recent weeks (railway nationalisation, repeal of Tory NHS privatisation, living wage, energy price freeze, repealing bedroom tax etc) are included in Labour's manifesto.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... kip-farage

[Adam Blake]

With all the attention on Ukip, it's easy to overlook the fact that the Greens did well in the Euro elections.

Voting Labour is realistically the main way of kicking out the hated Tories in 2015. Let's hope some of the more radical policies mentioned by Ed in recent weeks (railway nationalisation, repeal of Tory NHS privatisation, living wage, energy price freeze, repealing bedroom tax etc) are included in Labour's manifesto.

UKIP provide much better copy for journalists than the Greens. No-one cares about a bunch of sane, sensible people taking a long term view. Boring! Concentrate on the dangerous lunatics. They just keep giving.

I agree about voting Labour to get rid of Cameron, but I have absolutely zero faith in any of their pre-election promises. Sorry.

[Quintin]

I have absolutely zero faith in any of their pre-election promises. Sorry.

Quite agree. I know that its puerile to 'personalize' these issues but...the fact is that Labour politicians are tailoring their policies in an entirely knee-jerk way to respond to what they perceive is a threat to them. They and Miliband in particular show no leadership, none.. The Tories are just as bad; if not worse, save Ken Clarke who, as always says, it as he sees it. At least Clegg has the honesty, for example over Europe, to stand by what he believes in, whatever you may think about him and his party.

This highlights to my mind one of the reasons why people are deserting the 'traditional' parties. No one has any idea what they actually believe in. They think (rightly) that they will say anything to get elected, they have no morals, are entirely reactive to events and show no leadership on any issue. The appalling Farage at least says it as he sees it and certain people love that and of course he panders to their 'Daily Mail' sense of fear of the outsider and the different. Truly depressing...

It isn't just a British thing of course. I live half my time in France where in the recent Euro Elections the truly disgusting Marine Le Pen's party got 25% of the votes despite not really having any positive policies; merely being anti anything that offends them which, of course, is most things. However what slightly encourages me about the situation in France is the sense of national embarrassment about those results. No such similar feeling here which I also find so depressing.

[NickH]

The Tories are just as bad; if not worse

Tory governments are always worse than Labour ones. At least Ed Miliband has ditched all that neo-liberal New Labour nonsense, which Blair and co relentlessly followed. Perhaps too cautious for many people on this thread (myself included), but Labour do seem to be developing an alternative to the free market failure which followed the banking crash of 2008. I think Labour are onto something when they talk about the cost of living crisis which has affected the majority people since banker greed crashed the world economy.

Totally agree that the rise of neo-Nazi parties in Europe is profoundly depressing (Front National, Golden Dawn, Jobbik etc). On a more positive note, it's also worth mentioning the successes of new left parties Syriza in Greece and Podemos in Spain. Their dramatic increase in popularity on 22nd May was rather more impressive than Ukip's overhyped UK election result.

[Pete Fowler]

Labour is now (10 October) in deep, deep shit. Galloway has just tweeted that UKIP will walk it in Rotherham and Bradford South; Lincolnshire and East Anglia are ripe for picking (a peculiarly apt description for that part of the country!) and all I have to do, even here, in a Tory seat, is to wander into a public bar and catch the talk of the guys (it's still men up here, largely).

In the meantime, check out what's going on in Scotland. Glasgow, with seven Labour seats, is plastered with billboards urging people to 'never, ever vote Labour again". There's a particular campaign in Gordon Brown's seat, Brown being seen as the 'arch traitor' and 'great betrayer' because he stitched together the entirely useless 'vow' that had a distinct effect on the end-result up there.

The SNP in Scotland; UKIP in England. This could be Labour's Nemesis.

[Garth Cartwright]

Bad moon rising. Best interview with Farage - as in one that calls him the hypocrite, racist and bludger that he is - is James O'Brien's. Here in full. Depressing comments beneath from UKIP supporters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4Rq7av ... e=youtu.be

[NormanD]

It's good, but this interview is still insignificant compared with all the other non-stop fawning he's consistently received from the rest of the media. Even awkward interviews work in his favour - he has a good publicity team, that's for sure.

Labour's nemesis? Possibly. But they're more concerned at another party looking over their shoulder and threatening their Parliamentary privilege and self-entitlement than anything else. Maybe the withdrawal of financial backing and words of praise from big business would bother them more than The Ukips taking a few of their seats.

I despise Farridge with his pseudo-radicalism, phoney credentials, and small-minded nationalism and populism. This kind of thing used to be confined to those Tories in their rural seats-for-life, the hangers and floggers. The UK's never been short of this crowd, especially outside the Tory Party. The League Of Empire Loyalists, the Dowager Lady Birdwood, the round-up-the-trade-unonists-with-cattle-prods brigade. Like syphilis, they'll never go away. But at least you know where you stand with them.

The party I now have the most contempt for is Labour. The Ukips may be its nemesis, and it certainly deserves it. Its line will now likely be: vote for us OR YOU'LL GET FARRIDGE! And, in the meantime, it'll continue with the same policies (if you can call them that) that lead to people getting further disenchanted with them every time they say (with no apology or shame) that they'd continue with austerity should they ever get back in. If people are looking for a radical option then Labour won't even pretend to be it. Farridge has that air of populist radicalism about him. He's good at that - he's an opportunist, and knows how to appeal to the lowest level of fear, prejudice and uncertainty. And, as a political 'outsider', he can condemn all the ruling power structures and political corruptions.

I've no idea what next May's election will bring. Maybe another coalition? I expected some kind of 1931 National Government after the last election. I was wrong there, at least constitutionally. But we've ended up with one in reality.

Someone once said - it might have been Richard Neville - that there's an inch of difference between Tory and Labour, and we're living in that inch. Nowadays, can you even get a Rizla between them?