Pope blames American values

[Spartacus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7351742.stm

The second paragraph is the one that utterly appalled me.


I'm sorry if this causes offence, but I just find it unbelievable that a man of god...sorry, I'll stop.

[Hugh Weldon]

The second paragraph is the one that utterly appalled me

I wouldn't let it appal you until you've seen the full text of the speech. As it is, from this very sketchy brief report, I don't understand the point the Pope is supposed to be making.

[c hristian]

an investigation into how the man is appointed the living voice of christ is in order. I bet it's all who owes what to whom among the cardinals. like running for whip or speaker of the house.

[Spartacus]

I think the quote is fairly explicit. The pope is partly blaming the fall in American values for the grossly indecent acts of his subordinates. Since he and his organisation are supposed to promulgate, exemplify and maintain the highest standards for others to look to and hopefully follow; it hardly seems to be the voice of a penitent. He and his cardinals should resign!

It's like the kid in the playground: "It's not my fault, he made me do it". It smacks of the same reasoning as war criminals.

No wonder Jesus described such religious leaders as hypocrites, and whitewashed graves, full of plunder and immoderateness.

And just in case anyone thinks I'm only attacking the pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury is a druid!

Anyway I'm leaving this, cause I know how sensitive people can become and we've had our discussion about faith a year ago, but I just wanted to express my outrage!

Did he say sorry to the children? - many of course now adults?.

[That Was Jonathan E. Then]

Having been raised as a Catholic, I feel that I can confidently say that Catholicism is a crock of insert expletive of personal choice here. Nothing the Pope, this or any other, could say is ever going to convince me that there is any serious value to the ridiculous and hypocritical belief system embraced by this or any other monotheistic theory about the universe. It's truly just a way to keep power embedded in the old paternalistic system that believes in a top down, authoritarian, narrow view of things and how they should operate. It's war on nature — the root of all our environmental problems. Of course, I do believe that anyone should be allowed to believe in any foolishness they choose. Just don't expect me to respect it or threaten me with the Spanish Inquisition, or its contemporary equivalent, when I say what I believe.

[judith]

After reading this thread this morning, I happened to pick up the local newspaper and saw this headline - "Congressional candidate asks for papal exorcism of Bush, Cheney"

Here's the source of the headline, said candidate's blog - the April 16 entry:

http://tinyurl.com/5pydh3

[Hugh Weldon]

The last thing I want to do is kick up another Brown Sugar stink, though Gordon almost got me going. Not that I'm a particularly 'devout' Catholic any more, just that I feel if you want to criticise, look at what the guy actually said. Which in itself seems fairly uncontroversial (though I agree the whole issue of clergy child abuse is pretty abominable.)

From the Times:


On the child abuse scandal

“Among the countersigns to the Gospel of life found in America and elsewhere is one that causes deep shame: the sexual abuse of minors. Many of you have spoken to me of the enormous pain that your communities have suffered when clerics have betrayed their priestly obligations and duties by such gravely immoral behaviour.â€

[Spartacus]

Wine from this First Congressional District will be served in His Holiness's honor in the White House tonight. Sebastiani Vineyard in Sonoma is the winemaker of choice. "It's a very big honor," said Mary Ann Sebastiani Cuneo, president and CEO of Sebastiani. The First District makes some of the finest wines in the world, so it's no surprise.

Ahhh, that's nice then. Whilst some unnamed man finds his way to a troubled, fretful, fearful sleep, probably unable to find any peace, possibly alone, despised and shunned by others, because of the mental torture and scarring that he suffers from daily, his hoiliness (sic) can enjoy the finest wines.

This time no ***s they're a bunch of b****ds.

[Spartacus]

Sorry Hugh, I hadn't seen your response when I posted the above.

I was driving to work when I heard the BBC Radio 4 quote about the pope. I can't tell you why it made me feel the way it did. I don't have kids myself, i wasn't sexually abused, I have met some who were sexually abused by members of their own family and can see for myself the pain and anguish they face, but I've never met anyone who was so abused by any member of the clergy.

So I'm wondering why I feel so absolutely disgusted by these comments.

I think it's because if it were anyone else, or any other organisation they would be rightly vilified and disgraced.

As an ex-teacher if I had even touched a child I would have at the very least have lost my job, my reputation, my wife, my life - and quite rightly. Children have no power or ability to protect themselves. That's why when I see the damaged children that I do or have I have to ask, who is responsible for this. Fair enough, sometimes it is just the kids themselves. I won't hold to any namby pamby view that children are innocent - re Jamie Bulger etc.

So how come the leader of an organisation that KNOWS that its subordinates have indulged their perversions and tries to cover it up can be wined and dined absolutely disgusts me. How can not every single right thinking person on this planet not be so appalled.

He was a cardinal, a bishop, how can he and his ilk not have stood up and spoken out and absolutely decried with every fibre of their being these atrocities. How can they not stand up and as leaders say WE ARE WRONG, no excuses, no blaming others, no attempt to distance themselves, but simply say we are wrong. How can it be acceptable to stand there and say, yes we made certain errors, but it's not totally our fault. How come they aren't put on Megan's register. vilified, decried, abominated? How come that these priests aren't imprisoned and punished and ...

And where are the words that in any way attempt to make ammends? It has been the courts that have forced this organisation to make financial restition, but how can you make restitution when you've been sodomised?

This man knows, he has no excuse, he knows, his partners know, his subordinates know. God knows. bastards.

[Spartacus]

Sorry Hugh, I don't know why this makes me so utterly angry. Nothing against you.

Perhaps Charlie this thread should be expunged.

[Dayna]

I like some of what Hugh has said & what Gordon has said here. I feel a lot of sympathy for these people that have been abused by these clergymen too.
I heard on the news just now that some priests met with a couple of the people who had been abused as children & said that they prayed with them. I really hope these priests admitted what they did wrong & will take responsibility for the pain they have caused.

[Hugh Weldon]

I don't mind if it's expunged, but since Gordon introduced it I thought it only right to (a) let people see the full text of what the Pope actually said, rather than a brief news report and (b) to try and separate the horror we all feel about this from what the pope has actually said and done recently during his visit.

First of all he talks of 'deep shame', 'enormous pain' in regard to 'gravely immoral behaviour'. He then goes on to insist on 'acknowledging and confronting the problem' and a 'determined collective response'. He knows it's wrong for God's sake, he's gone a step beyond admitting that to talking (in fairly general terms admittedly) about dealing with it.

Also you seem to expect him to take personal responsibility for the actions of people beyond his control, which is like expecting the Minister of Education to take responsibility for paedophile teachers, or the head of the Army to answer personally for what happened at Deepcut. Moreover the Church is not an 'organisation' in the same way a business corporation or even a state is: it's a worldwide grouping in some ways fairly loose, and as I don't need to remind you, there are bastards everywhere, whether cloaked in clerical garb, military uniforms or business suits.

Perhaps he should go further, but to my mind this is the clearest official denunciation yet. He hasn't shirked the issue as he easily could have done. In fact I think I might understand your clearly righteous and heartfelt anger a little more had he ignored or sidestepped the issue. But he hasn't.

And no personal offence taken or apology needed. I'm not out to defend the pope at all costs, just to inject a little clarity and fairness. But it's a thorny and emotive issue. Perhaps we'd better leave it and get back to music.

[That Was Jonathan E. Then]

I think there are a couple of particularly offensive issues with the Catholic clergy and the sexual abuse of minors issue. Firstly, the Catholic church makes such strenuous attempts to control the sexual behaviour of its adherents, strenuous attempts that in themselves cause much guilt and shame over perfectly normal practices. So, eventually as it always will, the shadow side comes out. And even the Catholic church knows this because it has had the evidence for ages. It reacts with arrogance, the second particularly offensive attribute of its attitude towards the sexual abuse of children. At one of my schools, there were several predatory priests and lay teachers. We all knew at least some of them and pretty much accepted it, although I was never sexually abused myself. Boys did it to each other as well. It was the system and everybody knew it. One of the predatory priests turned out to be the headmaster. Shortly after I left that school, he was busted. There was a plea bargain of sorts worked out; he would face no criminal charges if it was agreed that he would never work with children again. Several years later you can guess what happened. He was put back in a teaching position. The terms of the agreement meant nothing to the church or to this supposedly holy man. This time he went to jail and, as I understand it, the resulting legal settlement nearly bankrupted the school, which, of course, would have been fine with me. I expect they hit up the old boys for a financial bailout — the Stockholm principle at work.

At the first boarding school I went to, there were several priests who with the benefit of hindsight I would simply call sadistic bastards, dumb sadistic bastards at that. The point being that Catholic doctrine encourages that sort of personality to behave in unacceptable ways. Not all that different, in my opinion, from the way the Nazi Party encouraged the vile and disgusting things it did in what had been relatively ordinary Germans. If institutional authority makes it acceptable for people to behave badly, some of them will and the institution should be called on it (to put it mildly).

Obviously, none of this can be laid at the feet of this pope as his personal responsibility — or for that matter at the feet of any particular pope. However, it argues that the institutional system is so corrupt, so obviously corrupt and liable to produce sexual and other forms of abuse, has been known to be so for so long — in fact, it is a part of the system and these results are inherent in the way it works, that all this kid-glove handling by civic authorities is ridiculous; it's kowtowing to the black robes. It also argues that the pope, any pope, if honest and aware of what goes on in the Catholic church knows and to attempt to blame it on any other segment of society is a smokescreen at best and an offensively hypocritical bit of lying would be a more honest description. It reminds me of all those cigarette company executives saying they didn't know that smoking was addictive and causes cancer. It's the same level of truth telling as those oil company executives who say there's no evidence of global warming. Who benefits from this kind of lying? You have to ask.

Please note that none of the above is intended to prohibit or cast aspersions upon any specific personal spiritual beliefs — but as an institution the Catholic church is rotten through and through. It's always been about the power structure — and, like all power structures, it looks after its own.

[Tom McPhillips]

(message deleted)

[Dayna]

It's really nice that you told that experience. It's sad, when any adult takes advantage of an innocent kid that way.
There are kids that get abused in that way by baby sitters, & online predators, & parents, ect. I'm sure in a way the attention does feel good, but it is sad and it's degrading. It's kind of confusing & embarrassing so they maybe just keep it to themselves for all that time.