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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:20 pm
by David Flower
basic difference for me is that Irish folk swings, often like hell, while english simply doesn't. I could provide many example of the former, almost none of the later. I much prefer the Irish for that reason. Even the great Martin Simpson can't hold a candle playing swinging banjo compared to say Cathal Hayden. Crafted, measured, beautiful maybe, but not swinging

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:11 pm
by Hugh Weldon
Garth wrote:

Would it be fair to say that with the outbreak of peace in Northern Ireland and the Celtic Tiger Irish folk has faded somewhat?


Yes I think it's faded a little. though I'm always slightly wary of trying to relate musical trends to social/political context - it strikes me a lot of lazy journalists like to do this and I often feel the 'yes but' response, ie yes, but I was there and it wasn't as pat and simple as you assume...

But certainly late 80s/early 90s it was much more prominent. The Pogues successfully connected Irish with punk, it was mainstream easy listening with the likes of Enya, and Van Morrison made a great album of traditional stuff with the Chieftains. Very strong influence on Sinead O'Connor too.

Then as David said there were lots of great Irish folk artists who really swung - not sure if that's quite the word but I know what he means. Sharon Shannon for example.

I was also reminded of the way Ron Kavana, a great pub rocker singing mainly American based stuff in the late eighties suddenly remembered he was Irish and produced a great live show which also began to incorporate African and other influences, as well as the trad Irish stuff - one of the points at which I came into 'world music' I think. I'm sure many here will remember some great nights at various North London venues. I think Charlie may have played his stuff on the radio a bit too.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:13 pm
by CantSleepClownsWillGetMe
Joe Cushley wrote -
Here's a folk-ish band I'm helping out. www.myspace.com/moulettes Comments please.


These guys (and guyettes) are good! Stonkin' fiddles, great harmonies from the two female singers, and interesting mixes; very enjoyable. As soon as they accept me as a 'friend' I'll be emailing them to get my hands on the 'Live' CD.

Thanks.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:55 pm
by Rob Hall
nigel w wrote:Don't know what's happening with the Little Feat back catalogue, but I can tell you exactly what's hapening with Ry Cooder's catalogue - precisely nothing. A ferw years ago Stuart Batsford at Warner Music International started pulling together a four disc Ry Cooder box set, on which I was a "consultant". Stuart came up with a fantastic tracklisting combining Ry's own material and the great sessions he has played on over the years (including Little Feat) and some interesting oddities he would probably rather forget, like several Monkees tracks he played on (along with Neil Young, James Burton and all sorts of other interesting people - perhaps we shoudl dig out those Monkees albums and see what we can hear!)

WMI canvassed the tracklisting and the project around all their European territories and came up with some very impressive projected sales figures. Ry then nixed the whole idea. I was deputed to try to talk him into it as I'd just worked with him on the Buena Vista liner notes and done a couple of epks around the Cuban records with him so we had a good relationship -but he was adamantly set against it. When I pressed him on why, his answer was ''Career retrospectives and box sets are for dead people.'' I respected him for it in a way, because he was turning down something that would have made him good money for no work other than talking to me so I could write the track-by-track notes in the booklet. But it was a real shame.

If I can find the proposed tracklisting, I'll post it here because there's some astonishing stuff that I bet you didn't even know he'd played on - some of it certainly came as a surprise to me....


I for one would greatly appreciate it if you could find and post the proposed track listing Nigel.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:04 pm
by Rob Hall
Ted wrote:
Charlie wrote:The Beginners Guide To England


Separate thread for this?

And can I nominate

I Love You - Dizzee Rascal
Saturday Night Beneath The Plastic Palm Trees - The Leyton Buzzards

for it.


Separate thread or wherever, the list ought to include at least one Ray Davies composition: "Waterloo Sunset" would seem the obvious choice. And Richard Thompson too, there's loads to choose from: I've always liked "Al Bowlly's In Heaven", personally.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:32 pm
by Charlie
Hugh Weldon wrote:Yes it was definitely Ray Jackson, though he played a mandolin solo on 'Maggie May', not an accordion.

of course it was mandolin, apologies.

nigel w wrote:I'd also add Ghost Town by the Specials, Kirsty McColl's version of A New England, Pulp's Common People

yes, yes, yes - I'd thought of all these while trying to go to sleep one night, but forgot when it came time to do the list in a hurry.

nigel w wrote: Dare one mention Chas & Dave?

ditto to my comment above, and One Fing or Annuver would be my candidate.

nigel w wrote: Oh, and Chumbawamba's Tubthumping


yes

Ted wrote:Saturday Night Beneath The Plastic Palm Trees - The Leyton Buzzards

I was trying to remember this, which I think I have on a 45.

Rob Hall wrote:the list ought to include at least one Ray Davies composition: "Waterloo Sunset" would seem the obvious choice.

yes, another one I remembered on the brink of sleep and forgot in the dawn of a new day.

So, now we have a CD's worth of great songs about England or being English, will somebody explain to me while these songs are not the real folk music of our time, rather than the backward looking ballads sung in peculiar voices that nobody uses in real life?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:08 pm
by Ian A.
Charlie wrote:Will somebody explain to me while these songs are not the real folk music of our time, rather than the backward looking ballads sung in peculiar voices that nobody uses in real life?

Image

I think this is what's known in the trade as one of those "when did you stop beating your wife" questions?

As mentioned elsewhere, if you'd been at Cecil Sharp House last Thursday you'd have heard a whole evening of traditional songs entirely relevant to modern life, none sung in peculiar voices (unless you regard the act of singing in your normal English speaking voice rather than a fake American accent as peculiar, which some do), and all by people much younger than those last-century bands you mention. Oh, and Graham Coxon from Blur (who have a singer with very peculiar mannerisms) was in the audience and participating in the after-show sing-up that went on until the small hours.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:52 pm
by Nigel w
That emoticon is truly, truly horrible. it's s so irritating and distracting that I can't even deal with the words in the above post !

If it shakes its rotund fat little head head once more in that 'you're all being a bunch of sillly billies' manner , I'm going to..... aaaagggghhhh!!!!

(I think such comments are legit - there's nothing in the 'forum decorum' that says we can't insult emoticons is there?)

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:13 pm
by Rob Hall
Ian A. wrote:As mentioned elsewhere, if you'd been at Cecil Sharp House last Thursday you'd have heard a whole evening of traditional songs entirely relevant to modern life, none sung in peculiar voices

It strikes me Ian, that you have only managed to answer one of the points that Charlie raised - that of the peculiar voices. Charlie suggested that the songs he mentioned are about England and being English, rather than that they are relevant to modern life. And you don't provide an answer to his question as to why the songs he mentions are not considered to be the real folk music of our time. I suspect that your use of the term "traditional" might have something to do with it - when does a popular song become "traditional"?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:23 pm
by Charlie
nigel w wrote:If it shakes its rotund fat little head head once more in that 'you're all being a bunch of sillly billies' manner , I'm going to..... aagggghhhh!!!!

Very similar to my emotions when I hear that traditional folk voice being discussed here. Quick, everybody, fill this page up so we can move on and leave M-O-ticks-us-off to spin around on his own. If we can't see it, does it still exist?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:47 pm
by Ted
So do we think that the closer a singers voice is to his/her speaking voice the more authentic the emotions expressed? Sounds like a very dodgy proposition to me.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:10 pm
by Ian A.
Rob Hall wrote:Charlie suggested that the songs he mentioned are about England and being English, rather than that they are relevant to modern life.

Charlie suggested, as he often does, that English folk music was "backward looking". That was the point I addressed.
Rob also wrote:when does a popular song become "traditional"?

Search me! At a guess, when the original author has largely or entirely become forgotten and the song has gone through lots of intermediaries in a process of evolution, updating. Whatever (and who cares, really?), it's certainly what distinguishes traditional songs from "covers". (As ever, have to note this is not a quality judgement . . . )
Charlie wrote:when I hear that traditional folk voice

To repeat, if that means the silly voices that the previous generation of folkies adopted, that has largely vanished among the new one. But you'd have to listen to them to find out, mostly on live gigs, so I suspect this prejudice may long remain intact!
Ted wrote:So do we think that the closer a singers voice is to his/her speaking voice the more authentic the emotions expressed? Sounds like a very dodgy proposition to me.

Don't understand "authentic". Just making distinction between silly old folk mannerisms (actually no better or worse than silly old opera mannerisms or silly old white-English-blokes-trying-to-sound-like-black-Americans mannerisms) and current folk generation with far less detectable mannerisms. But actually, I do find that any kind of heavy mannerisms often show that the person singing is concentrating more on the noise they're making with their mouth than the words they're singing, so yes, there is sometimes a correlation between singing in your natural voice and genuine emotional involvement. Anyway, as above, since silly old folk mannerisms made a certain person thkweam and thkweam till he wath thick, I thought that news of the evaporation of mannerisms might actually be welcome. Clearly not!
Image

(The built in php board emoticons are much less offensive, but since we can't use them . . . )

PS So where does the Kinks' Village Green Preservation Society fit into your scheme of things?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:19 pm
by David Flower
Ian A. wrote: But actually, I do find that any kind of heavy mannerisms often show that the person singing is concentrating more on the noise they're making with their mouth than the words they're singing, so yes, there is sometimes a correlation between singing in your natural voice and genuine emotional involvement.


I don't have a particular view on all this, but wonder where John Martyn fits in. Certainly an ex-folkie but one who has gradually become more and more stylised in his singing (mannerisms you could argue) to the point of jazzy incomprehensibility. Yet he must be one of the most emotional singers ever. He constantly looks like he's going to burst into tears these days

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:30 pm
by Nigel w
Whatever (and who cares, really?)


Well clearly, you do Ian - desperately! And surely in your position so you should. What Rob Hall asked was :

when does a popular song become "traditional"?


It seems to me a very valid question.


And that latest emoticon is even more juvenile and disgusting than the last one. In fact we're in Beavis & Butthead territory. You've proved your point that emoticons are daft, crass and unwanted. Please desist. Else we will all thkweam and thkweam until we are thick(sic).

PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:50 pm
by Ian A.
nigel w wrote:juvenile disgusting daft crass unwanted..

:Life's-too-short-icon: